Mujahid Talks with Imam Malik Mujahid in conversation with Daryl Johnson - Expert on Domestic Extremist Groups in the US
Interviewed at 11 AM Central Time Friday Nov 27. only on Muslim Network TV #DomesticTerrorism #HateCrimes #DHS
Guest: Daryl Johnson - Expert on Domestic Extremist Groups in the US - Former Senior Analyst at the Department of Homeland Security - Founder DT Analytics
Host: Imam Abdul Malik Mujahid -- President of Sound Vision and Justice for All.
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Unoffical Transcript:
Abdul Malik Mujahid 00:01
Salaam Alaikum and peace This is Imam Malik Mujahid and you're watching Muslim network TV. We are always there 24 seven broadcasting throughout North America on galaxy 19 satellite covering USA coast to coast is to us not to south and Canada and Mexico. And we also stream on OTT devices like Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV, Roku. You can download our app on your Android and iPhone, just Muslim network. tv and you will be able to download and watch us there. Our website is Muslim network TV. You know, remember Oklahoma bombing? That was a while ago, right. Just a couple of days after that I was traveling to I was scheduled to travel to Seattle, Washington and and being a leader of the Muslim community, we decided okay, since I'm going there, I should have a press conference condemning terrorism. As soon as I arrive at the airport, in Seattle, I have a dozen or so people asking my name and some wear uniforms or without uniforms, sniffing dogs. And they essentially escorted me to the place where I was doing the press conference room was full of about 40-50 people. I never had that many people in my press conference. But as soon as I started reading my statement was on behalf of all Muslims, organization in America, about condemning terrorism, I see those guys started looking towards each other and started living room. So I only have 10 or so reporters and TV cameras left It's seem rest of them, were law enforcement. I wonder what they were thinking. And when I was done and went to the parking lot at the airport is still my friend parking lot. And I saw a military military type vehicle following me. And within a week, my friend who has a government job lost his job in such a hurried way that he was asked to give a charge to an intern who was working with him. I don't know what was going on. But Muslims were accused of that bombing in Oklahoma. Pretty soon, of course, it became clear and news came out. It was some right wing extremist who has been arrested. And so islamophobes were implicating Muslim community. So so. So these were the same right wing extremists probably more organized better care, whichever commander in chief President Trump was given command to stand back and stand by whole world wonder why it is difficult to condemn them. And that was something which somebody was noted. Even at the time of President Obama and Department of Homeland Security. DHS issued a report about the dangers of right wing extremism. It was condoms so much. I don't know who else but definitely republicans and conservative that the department of homeland security chief have to actually apologize. And they disbanded that group, which was working on, they assigned them to continue work on the Islamic extremism, the old bogey and the person who was leading the group actually was forced to leave. That was Daryl Johnson and he's our guest today to talk about right wing extremism. Welcome to network TV, Daryl, how are you?
Daryl Johnson 04:22
doing well, thanks for having me Malik.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 04:26
Daryl Johnson is author of a book calld hate land, a long hard look at America's extremist heart. He worked as a senior analyst at the Department of Homeland Security leading a team on keeping an eye on these people and which issued the report and now he's a founder of DT analytics. Now, Southern Poverty Law Center says that there is a 55% increase in white nationalist hate groups. Tell me is it is the same as the anti government extremist are there is a difference between these two.
Daryl Johnson 05:09
So when we look at domestic terrorism, we categorize the extremist movements on the political spectrum as either being far right or far left. So when you're dealing with the far right, you're talking about two large groups are movements. One is the white supremacist movement, and the other is the anti government movement. So they are similar in the fact that they're right wing leaning, you know, nationalistic, they may have racism within these groups, but they have two different causes that they're defending. One is white supremacy oriented, the other is repelling the tyrannical government. And so within these two big movements, we also have sub movements. So under white supremacy, you have neo nazis, you have racist skinhead gangs, you have kkk factions, you have Aryan, prison gangs. You also have a racist religious philosophy called Christian identity, which believes that whites are the true Israelites, not those in the Middle East. And as far as anti government groups, we have sovereign citizens that don't believe in being a US citizen. So they don't follow our laws. They don't adhere to government regulation. They don't pay their taxes. And then we have these paramilitary groups called militias that are also under the anti government umbrella. So as you can see, it's a very diverse group of extremists that fall under this far right extremism.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 06:50
What ......? How many are there?
Daryl Johnson 06:56
Well, it's difficult to estimate the membership. But we tried to do this at Homeland Security. And mind you, you're talking about a wide range of supporters, some people advocate violence, some people carry out violence, other people donate money or add, you know, rhetorical support or make calls for violence. So there's a wide swath of people. But when you're talking white supremacy, you're numbering in the hundreds of thousands of Americans hearing and supporting to white supremacy. On the anti government side is a little less we're talking 10s of thousands of paramilitary members and probably hundreds of thousands of sovereign citizens.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 07:40
Is it any overlap that some of them are part of both or period ideaology is very clear to them?
Daryl Johnson 07:47
So in any type of extremism, you do have people that, you know, the different philosophies blend together, they may be members of both white supremacists and the anti government groups, and then you have other people that are just strict adherence to those different philosophies. So it's kind of a, you know, a mix.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 08:11
Would you say they are on the rise? Are there any latest reports or something about that
Daryl Johnson 08:18
Yeah, so we saw the first growth of these movements in the aftermath of Ruby Ridge and Waco, these are two governments standoff with extremists in the early 90s. That's when we started seeing a rise the new rise of, you know, white supremacy and anti government groups. And so after Oklahoma City, because law enforcement started investigating the the violent offenders, the courts, starting sentencing leaders who were, you know, conspiring with people for violence. We had states that passed paramilitary laws, banning paramilitary training, we had people that just got bored with this revolution that they kept preparing for that never materialized. So we had, by the late 90s, these groups were on the decline and into the early 2000s. They were still around, but they just weren't proliferating and growing like they have in the past 10 years. It was within the 2008 when we had the unprecedented election of the first African American president that coupled with the housing bubble economic collapse, that provided a fertile ground for recruiting and so we have this new second wave of militia and white supremacy and anti government extremism that started in 2007 and has continued to grow all the way to 2020.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 09:44
What are the other demographic? Are they some middle aged people older or they have equal participation from all sides?
Daryl Johnson 09:53
Yes, so these movements are representative of society. So you have people of all ages that have committed acts of terrorism and violence. We've had people as young as 17 years old, like Kyle Rittenhouse, who conducted, the shooting have been Kenosha recently. And we've had people up in their late 70s, you know, 60s, late 60s years old, like James von Braun, who carried out the Holocaust Memorial shooting back in 2009, in Washington, DC. So there's a wide range of people, and they come from different backgrounds, a lot of them, you know, have military experience. Some of them are just tradesmen, others have been educated in our colleges and universities. But it's predominantly white male, we do have females that belong to these organizations, we've also had people of color, but that tends to be a very small minority.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 10:49
Hmm. And, and they subscribe to the but you know, this same ideaology or what are their reasons of the people of color being in there?
Daryl Johnson 10:58
Well, they particularly gravitate towards the anti government side of the movement. You know, they're fearful of, you know, an economic collapse, maybe they lost their job. Maybe they're fearful of government corruption or their constitutional rights being infringed upon. So that's why there's a wider appeal for, you know, both predominantly white, but also some minority groups joining up with militias and sovereign citizens.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 11:31
Now are they, concentrated in certain parts of the country, or they're spread out.
Daryl Johnson 11:37
So every country or every state in the country has these types of people living in their populations. But we do have concentrations throughout the country for both white supremacy as well as the anti government groups. So as far as white supremacy, the southeast United States, because of the history of the Civil War, and everything else, continues to be a hub for white supremacy. Also, when the Pacific Northwest, a lot of people want to flee the city centers and they go out west, and they want to form their own separate United States or another country in the Pacific Northwest. And of course, your populated states, like Texas and California, have larger numbers just because the populations are larger. As far as the anti government groups, they're concentrated along the Appalachian Mountain chain. We also have a concentration and what we call the Midwest around the Great Lakes region, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and also the Pacific Northwest. And again, those states like Texas and California, because of the population densities, some of the southern states Southwest like Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and California, also have a little bit larger militia presence because of the southwest border and some of the issues that they look at, regarding immigration.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 13:05
Are they mostly middle class people or poor people?
Daryl Johnson 13:12
Um, it's kind of hard to say, I would say that it's a mix. I mentioned before, kind of the different types of occupations these people have engaged in, there needs to be more work that looks into the violent offenders and what their backgrounds are. But like I said, military backgrounds is very common for people with trade skills, whether it's carpentry construction, things of that nature, but we have had people that have been government employees have worked in private industries that have also adhered to these belief systems. And you know, these extremists belief systems. They're out there, and people come across them, and it affects all classes of people.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 14:00
You mentioned military, former military, is it disproportionate participation or somewhat.
Daryl Johnson 14:08
So the white supremacy side, it's a lot smaller participation or people have had those backgrounds. But still, it equals hundreds, if not thousands of former military members have had contact or belong to these extremist groups. It's more on the militia paramilitary side that we see the higher concentrations and I would say that upwards of 20 to 25% of militia groups are comprised of people with current or former military backgrounds.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 14:40
You know, there is a high level of former military who commit suicide also. So does it have something to do with whatever trauma they have gone through people who are in somewhat depressed some some hurt themselves and others hurt other people? So they still have some of that psychological phenomena in place here.
Daryl Johnson 15:05
Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's not a predominant role. But certainly People's War experience, they come back home traumatic experiences from being on the battlefield. So some of the violent offenders have suffered from PTSD, because they're not getting the adequate treatment here, not being able to get a job easily or reactively and into society. And so they fall victim to recruitment by these groups, not only for their military background and experience, but also their leadership skills that they've shown, and the power military skills they've learned on the battlefield. So it's, it's kind of a mix of different factors that, you know, draw the extremists to target these military veterans.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 15:52
You're watching Muslim network Tv, this is Imam Malik Mujahid. I'm talking with Daryl Johnson, who's an expert on right wing militias. And we'll be right back after these messages.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 16:34
Welcome back to Muslim network TV. This is Imam Malik Mujahid and talking with Daryl Johnson, who's an expert in right wing extremism. So when you from what year to, what year, were you with the Department of Homeland Security?
Daryl Johnson 16:50
Yes, so I was with the Department of Homeland Security from 2004 until 2010. But I've had a background in studying these extremist groups for other agencies as well as my collegiate studies. So my interest in this topic actually goes back to when I was 15 years old, I actually saw
Abdul Malik Mujahid 17:07
15 years old?
Daryl Johnson 17:09
Yes, I saw a new program about a standoff back in 1985, on a lake in Arkansas, involving white supremacists being surrounded by the FBI and ATF, because they had some fugitive terrorists there. And they uncovered a plot to poison water supplies and to bomb churches and things of this nature. The group was called the covenant sword arm of the Lord. And when I saw that, I was just intrigued by white people have a religious background, who were supposed to be kind, loving, peaceful individuals turned into a church that was plotting terrorism and hatred and violence and trying to hasten the end of the world. And that just interested in me as a teenage boy. And so I took an interest in these subjects and, you know, became educated about them and took classes in college about it and studied it and turned it into a career.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 18:18
Were you anytime while while young, were intrigued to the level that you wanted to join them?
Daryl Johnson 18:25
No, I didn't want to join these groups. But I was intrigued because some of my personal beliefs at the time were similar to their beliefs. So there was kind of an interest there. But of course, I didn't want to hurt anybody or, you know, do criminal activity or terrorists. But it was just something that is, you know, teenage boy, I was interested in why these people believe these things. And it was just curiosity.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 18:54
How many people are like you who are experts in right wing? Research in right wing extremism in our country? It's a big field or a small field?
Daryl Johnson 19:07
Yeah, it's a very small, tight knit field of study. So at the federal level, we have, you know, just a handful of analysts at the FBI, Homeland Security led by myself, other federal law enforcement agencies may have one analyst looking at these types of things. So it is a very small, niche community within the federal law enforcement and intelligence community. Are you talking dozens of analysts were those looking at, you know, Al-Qaeda and ISIS types threats are in the hundreds, if not a few thousand analysts looking at that
Abdul Malik Mujahid 19:47
is still the same case or it was you're telling me the old story
Daryl Johnson 19:52
is still the same case. I keep in touch with people in my career that I met and you know, four times With the FBI did grow its program a little bit when back in 2008 when Obama was elected, but still is, you know, in the dozens, it's not like they hired hundreds of people.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 20:13
Hmm. Now then you develop this report did you start that section within Homeland Security to study or this section existed before you join?
Daryl Johnson 20:27
So I was actually recruited to join Homeland Security and bring my expertise. And I was the very first analyst at the Department of Homeland Security that looked at non Islamic terrorism. And because there was so much work to do, I went to my supervisor and said, we have to have more analysts because it's too much work for one person. So over the course of time, we hired additional analysts to start helping monitor these threats. So we were looking at, you know, both the far right, the types of groups that I've described to you, but also the far left, which is not as active and does not have as much extremist members. But there are far left extremists like the, you know, violent anarchists and Tifa type individuals, we also have black supremacy. That's very similar to the white supremacy, but they believe that the black race is superior, and they've carried out acts of violence. So we looked at all the different types, animal rights, environmental terrorists. So we had quite a bit of, you know, groups and movements to look at and assess the threat levels.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 21:48
So, so your portfolio was not just right wing extremists, but everything but the Muslim connected terrorism, which was international in nature. And and that one, you're saying has several thousand people still and this one is still have dozens of people only?
Daryl Johnson 22:08
Yeah.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 22:09
Well, this is this is this is just very surprising. So so when you develop the report, why a, you know, administration, which was Obama's administration, had to apologize on that. And was there some inaccuracy is found in your report.
Daryl Johnson 22:31
There are no inaccuracies. But there are a couple of, I guess, topics that were controversial, one of which was the returning veterans coming home and being recruited into extremists, organizations, some of the veteran organizations didn't like the fact that I was drawing attention to that phenomenon, which has existed for decades. There was also controversy over our definition of what a right wing extremist is. And basically, we described, you know, right wing extremism as being comprised of hate oriented organizations as well as anti government. And they may focus on single issue, such as gun rights, abortion, taxation, things of this nature, because we've had violent people who have focused just on those single issues. And so some of the conservative media and Republicans took things out of context, and they wanted to do anything they could to embarrass the new administration, because in 2008, they not only lost The White House, but also congressional and Senate seats. And so it was a, you know, big loss for the Republicans, and so they were looking for anything that they could do to embarrass the new administration or cause a controversy. And that's what they did. They took things out of context, they, you know, spun things politically, and they use an intelligence report to basically create a political firestorm, which is unfortunate because the message, the warning that was in that report got lost.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 24:21
And that despite the fact that you yourself are Republican and a person of faith, you know, you're not joining any liberal leftist agenda there.
Daryl Johnson 24:33
Right at the time, I was probably one of the most conservative type of people you can come across in America. I was raised in a very conservative religion community called Mormonism. But I was also a third generation republican gun owner. You know, I was pretty much toeing the party line and believe those things my my political and religious views have changed since then. But at the time, I was probably the most conservative poster child you could get.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 25:07
So, so when Obama administration apologized, what did they apologize for?
Daryl Johnson 25:16
Basically, for offending conservatives and, you know, I guess dishonouring military events, they thought that we could have been more sensitive to those two topics.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 25:28
So, , so the report was withdrawn, officially, our report is state on the record?
Daryl Johnson 25:36
Right, so the report was vetted properly followed all the procedures and rules that we had in place, the FBI concurred on it. I briefed Janet Napolitano face to face, she agreed with the findings, the FBI was there at the briefing. And so it was released officially, it was only when the controversy in the political you know, fighting began that they pulled the reporter back and said they were going to rewrite it, and which they never did. But they tried to say that the report was, you know, leaked or put out without official, you know, authorities and that was wrong.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 26:24
I noted that time, Representative Keith Ellison, from Minnesota as President Obama to reopen the extremists office or Department of Homeland Security. What was the outcome? Did they restart or still they don't have any office there?
Daryl Johnson 26:44
Yeah, so they they don't have an office doing it. Like we were back in 2008 2009. But they've tried to work with the FBI and put out some intelligence reports to the police about these groups. But it's, it's nothing like what it was when I was there.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 27:04
Hmm. So it's America. Do you think America I mean, knowing that there are only so many few dozen analysts working on it? Do you think America is is better ready to deal with right wing extremism as compared to when you were there?
Daryl Johnson 27:24
No, in fact, I think they're less prepared because the movements have grown year after year for 10 years, where we haven't devoted the same amount of resources and money into developing strategies and investigating these groups. So we're very behind the threat, and has grown to the point where we, you know, people can't ignore it anymore. We have to do something.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 27:51
So is the intelligent committee is still somewhat afraid of focusing on the right wing extremism, because of what happened to you and your report.
Daryl Johnson 28:00
Right. So because of the political backlash that my unit received from that report, and created a chilling effect, and both the law enforcement and intelligence communities, that if you write about these subjects, we're going to object to it and we're going to come after your organization, we're going to try to pull funding, we're going to try to get people fired. We're going to, you know, hound you with all kinds of information requests and hassle you. And so it made it very apparent, people became disinterested or outright scared to research or write about this topic for fear of retaliation.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 28:44
What do you think that was The the, you know, Vice President being a black, Kamala Harris, married to a Jewish person, do you think it will, again, reignite and strengthen the right wing extremism?
Daryl Johnson 29:07
Yeah, I think we're in a heightened period of risk. With the republican administration leaving and the Democratic administration coming in all the trends that I've looked at for the past 40 years on these right wing extremists, they get more active and more agitated during Democratic administrations. So unfortunately, we're in for another round of these types of groups and their violence and harassment and criminal activity. So we are, you know, elected officials and our law enforcement officials need to understand that, that we're going to continue to have this threat for you know, the next four 810 years.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 29:56
You're watching Muslim network TV, this is Imam Malik Mujahid and I am Talking with Daryl Johnson, who led the team started a team and led the team at Department of Homeland Security before team was disbanded, and he was let go about white extremism. And we'll be right back after these messages.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 30:38
Welcome back to Muslim network TV. This is Imam. Malik Muajhid, talking with Daryl Johnson, who former Department of Homeland Security. You know, about 10 years ago, in 2010. There was a report a cover story in Time magazine about the right wing militias. And it has many organizations, but it is started talking about a particular militia Ohio Defence Force. So while preparing for this show, I went looking for them, not in person, not my concert or anything just on internet. And it turned out they have a website. And it is an incorporated entity as a not for profit entity. And, and doing well, it seems. So are all most of these groups are not for profit organizations.
Daryl Johnson 31:39
Well, not all of them, but some of them do go through the formal process of establishing an organization identity website and even register with their local governments as a business or nonprofit. Something that's very interesting is, you know, there's been this debate for, you know, decades on whether these private militias are lawful. They, you know, hide behind the Second Amendment of the Constitution that says, you know, that we need have the right to bear arms and assemble and form these militias, and that the rights of the militia won't be infringed and things like this Georgetown Law this year, and as well as last year, did some research and found out that every state in the country has a law that says that these militia organizations are illegitimate, that they're not supposed to exist, and that it's against the law to exist only when the governor or some other government official calls upon the militia is it legitimized? So all these organizations that haven't had a governor or, you know, Senators or their own county council, call them up, are unlawful. And unfortunately, law enforcement really hasn't applied this law and, you know, enforce it.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 33:07
So it's, in some way tolerated. I mean, this is what Ohio defense, you know, for says, I am quoting from their website, we do volunteer our service to our local government. This has included the county commissioners, sheriff's and police departments. So it seemed not only they have been tolerated, but there is a collaborative effort. And when the Wisconsin, Wisconsin incident happen, the gunman who murdered a couple of people and injured another one was walking raising his hand and nobody bothered to arrest and actually some law enforcement provided them, you know, some water or something before the incident. So So what is this collaboration between law enforcement and militias?
Daryl Johnson 33:59
Yeah, so particularly disturbing aspect of these extremist groups and the FBI has been aware of and the Justice Department that these ties exist. And so that's why the FBI and federal authorities when they do investigations into the unlawful activities of these groups like firearms violations, you know, bomb plots, things like this. They only have a few trusted state, local law enforcement people that they vet who participate in these investigations, a lot of times they, you know, keep the investigations hidden from the local and state authorities, for fear of, you know, the investigation being compromised or the suspects of the investigation being tipped off. So, this is one of the things I recently took on the responsibility of being a non resident fellow for the Center for Global Policy, which is a think tank, nonpartisan think tank and I've written a couple Have assessments for them, which you can read on their website. And that's one of the things we've been calling for as a policy is for, you know, local state officials to distance themselves from these extremist groups. And if there are any law enforcement officers that are members of them, that there needs to be some sort of administrative action taken to remove them from sensitive positions, you know, interacting with the community, it really calls into question their ability to, you know, be objective in their police work, because they subscribe to your different types of conspiracy theories, extremist beliefs, they believe things that are unfair, actually not, you know, true. So that's a big concern, and something that we've been calling for, for, you know, better policing of the police departments and purging these extremist sympathizers from within the ranks of police departments.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 36:01
Well, good luck with that 24 or so analysts around the country, you know, that not enough to recommend research, not enough to analyze not enough to recommend and if they're recommended, I don't know what level it is getting stuck at. But over the same report about the Ohio defense Force, the Time Magazine, you know, start off target seeing their exercise. And that exercise was to destroy a headquarter of Islamic terrorist force, because they saying that Islamic terrorists are growing in Michigan and Illinois, and Ohio and all that. So where did this thing there their focus on Muslims and these things is coming from are they listening to the post 911 government rhetoric, and thriving based on that and developing a sort of a, a common cause between law enforcement and themselves? So what is the genesis of this thing?
Daryl Johnson 37:07
Yeah, so a lot of these militia groups today try to distance themselves from white supremacy and racism and hate. But in reality, you just pointed out, these militia groups are indeed hate groups, because they have very extreme views on immigration, and particularly Latin Americans who come here to the country. And they also, you know, embrace Islamophobia. So this has come from not only the high concentration of military veterans, and, you know, current former military members who fought over in Afghanistan and Iraq and had been indoctrinated to dehumanize, you know, their opponents on the battlefield, who are, you know, Muslims. There's also the 911, you know, these groups use the flag and patriotism. They're ultra nationalistic. So they want to protect this country, from any foreign invaders or perceived threats from you know, whether it's the Middle East or Latin America. But also, there's conspiracy theories out there that talk about, you know, how Muslims as they come into America, they're going to implement Sharia law and things of this nature and, and outlaw Christianity and things like this, which are totally unfactual. And not true. But these people fear that and they, you know, believe in that. And so that's what I think is that kind of the center of them targeting the American Muslim community. And we've seen, you know, militia members up in Minnesota that actually threw a pipe bomb into a mosque in Bloomington. Fortunately, it was. Nobody was at the Islamic Center at the time, so nobody got hurt or killed, but it did damage the facility and showed that these people were willing to hurt and kill Muslims. We also had a group in Kansas that plotted to drive a vehicle bomb to an apartment complex of Somali Muslim immigrants and blow out their, you know, their homes. So these are just a couple of examples of the threat that these militia groups have posed to the Muslim community here in the United States.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 39:28
He has close to 500 Mosque, which has been targeted at different levels, as ACLU keeps the tab on that. Here's what if they are thriving on the government rhetoric of Muslim ban and before that, and invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and those things together and considering Muslim Americans to be you know, part and parcel of what is going on in the overseas but then That rhetoric, you know, those attacks are not just in isolation. I mean, in 34 states 100 plus laws have been presented to ban that so called Sharia and 14 states, those laws passed, although had no practical implications, so what do they think they do they think Muslim or not 1% of this society but a larger number or they have tanks or something, are they gonna vote? What the Sharia in how Sharia gonna come in and according to their perceptions,
Daryl Johnson 40:36
I think according to their perceptions, they look at Muslims as foreigners and people that, you know, believe in a false religion, according to them, because they're, you know, devoutly Christian most of the militias. So they look at the, you know, Islamic religion as a threat, they look at just Muslims, you know, with their, you know, customs, their practices and culture, the way they dress, all of that, to them is foreign, and they're fearful of these foreign influences a Rudy eroding what they think America should look like, which is predominantly white, and Christian. So those are two big aspects, that I think, you know, draw the attention of these groups and want to target. So when they see the population, the number of mosques growing or the number of Muslim Americans growing, they're fearful that at some point, you know, they will become the majority
Abdul Malik Mujahid 41:38
Wow. This, they need to somehow understand the power of America that everybody who comes into this melting pot itself is start diluting instead of increasing to anything. One of the things I mean, you know, now during the Trump administration, and President Trump who says, you know, stand back and stand by and that type of thing. So there is a sort of overlap between the political rhetoric. And then it gets into the darker areas of becoming the extremism of lightweight extremism, or then deep militia, and then within militia, those who are willing to actually act on it. So it seems the resaved rhetoric and action at one or the other level are connected. So so it tells me that the capacity of democratic administration might be somewhat limited to influence are convinced them to stay back instead of it standby is so so so. So do you think that Republicans and people who consider themselves on the right side of the center and conservative have some responsibility to deal with this particular phenomenon?
Daryl Johnson 43:09
Yes, they have a greater responsibility because it takes people like myself, who was raised conservative registered Republican, to call out this threat. Because if the democrats are the only ones that are condemning it, it just feeds into, you know, the fact that they feel that the democrats are persecuting them, that the democrats are expanding the rights of minorities that are going to go after their guns. So it's going to take Republican leadership to lead this fight against right wing extremism. Of course, both parties need to call out and condemn the violence and criminality, and the nonsense, the conspiracy theories and stuff like this. And treat all extremism as you know, threats depending on how active they're evolved and how many attacks they're involved in. And so, you know, elected officials, when you're running for office, you need to take greater care with your rhetoric and your messaging, because someone on the fringe is out there listening to you, and could actually take what you're saying and act on it violently to hurt other people. So we've seen this correlation between public officials messaging, and increases in violent hate crimes as well as terrorist plotting. You know, many of your listeners probably remember, Caesar say Ark, the bomber who mailed the pack mail bomb packages back in 2016. Two different democrats and democratic supporters. So that's just one example of how a politician's message could fall onto the ears of an extremist and cause them to mobilized towards violence.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 45:02
So what do you think are the chances of some people on the Republican side who will take up this cause of saving our country from another form of extremism and terrorism?
Daryl Johnson 45:15
Unfortunately, they've been predominantly silent on this issue for the past 10 years. I'm hoping that as we move into a new phase, trying to heal America, to try to address the racial division, the social and justices, the grievances that have been brought out and all the civil unrest over the summer, that more and more republicans will, you know, come forward and take a leadership role in these efforts. Because like I said, I mean, the democrats can try as much as they want. But you know, the more they try, the more it feeds into the extremist worldview on the far right. And it makes them more fearful and even more agitated. So it's going to take, you know, Republicans leading the effort with Democrats supporting them to address this issue from, you know, federal level,
Abdul Malik Mujahid 46:10
Is there any group in existence of those people who, in their earlier life, were part of the right wing extremism. And now they are reform and they are working together to communicate because they are the people who know the language, they know the ideology, they may have some cultural affinity with these people. Is that any effort like that?
Daryl Johnson 46:34
Yeah, we've seen some groups form to what we call counter radicalization or to counter message these groups are to pull people out of these movements and reform them and acclimate them back into society. A good friend of mine, Christian pish. aleni was one of the first organizations that tried to seek federal grant funding for this, he was given hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Obama administration to set up a organization to do exactly this. And the Trump administration cancelled it within the first few months of coming into office in 2016. So that's one effort that I believe in. And I think that the Democratic administration should take a look at and fund these types of organizations to pull people out of the white supremacy and militia groups and try to re acclimate them into society.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 47:28
What else the new, you know, President elect should consider doing to deal with this because this is a serious danger, isn't it?
Daryl Johnson 47:36
Sure is, I mean, we definitely need money and resources. I think we've had enough FBI testimony, Homeland Security testimony recently, just to point out that this is the primary national security threat within the country. So definitely let the threat dictate the money and resources. To combat it. Don't just sit there and blindly keep funding you all these analysts to look at, you know, Muslim threats at the expense of other threats that we have here in the country that are more dangerous and more active. You know, one thing that I'm also involved in is this nonprofit organization in Wisconsin called, we are many united against hate. And they've just recently, just within the past month, started a program called a race hate in our public schools. And so we have two high schools in Wisconsin that have signed up to participate in this program. And I hope that it becomes a national program, because we need to start educating our children, not only about the dangers of drugs, and gangs, but the dangers of extremism. And so if anyone's interested in you know, starting this program, erase hate in their schools, they should reach out to the organization's head and Masood Azhar and see what they need to do to start this program.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 49:01
Okay. If you provide their website, we will provide to, you know, through our people who are watching and provide that particular link. Well, so give me a bottom line, do you feel that these right wing extremism is going to rise further?
Daryl Johnson 49:23
So the bottom line is these right wing extremists have organized and carried out acts of violence and are operating at a heightened level for the past 10 years. They're going to continue to operate at a heightened level and conduct attacks and continue recruiting for the next four, five, maybe even up to 10 years. So it's going to take a lot of effort on the part of both governments at all levels, state, local and federal as well as people, you and I increasing our understanding about the dangers of these organizations and the types of beliefs that You know, propagating, if we have family members, neighbors or friends who belong to these types of extremist groups or adhere to their beliefs, rather than distancing ourselves from them, we need to become more inclusive, trying to show them love and get him involved in our communities and to show to break down the stereotypes that fuel these extremist beliefs, stereotypes about different races, different faith based communities. So together, you know, we can all chip in to try to push against this extremist threat. And, you know, I'm grateful now that we've got enough academics and non government organizations that realize this is a threat and so they're trying to research and produce reports and provide policy recommendations, such as I have with the center of global policy to our elected officials so that we can get a handle on this threat and finally, you know, decrease it.
Abdul Malik Mujahid 51:05
Well thank you so much Daryl Johnson. Daryl Johnson is an expert on right wing extremism work for the homeland security in the past and suffered because of his work. Well, thank you so much for your work, truly appreciate it. And thank you for being with us. And thank you producer sherdil Khan and Abdul Waheed to produce today's show. And thank you so much for you watching Muslim network TV. We are always there on galaxy 19 satellite covering whole North America as well as streaming on Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV, Roku, and you're on iPhone and Android phones. Just download our app Muslim network TV or on website Muslimnetwork.tv Thank you so much, and it's keep watching peace Salam
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